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	<title>Comments on: General election night: the distasteful sport of politics</title>
	<atom:link href="http://doctorvee.co.uk/2009/09/08/general-election-night-the-distasteful-sport-of-politics/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://doctorvee.co.uk/2009/09/08/general-election-night-the-distasteful-sport-of-politics/</link>
	<description>Not a real vee</description>
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		<title>By: Stuart Winton</title>
		<link>http://doctorvee.co.uk/2009/09/08/general-election-night-the-distasteful-sport-of-politics/comment-page-1/#comment-1417479</link>
		<dc:creator>Stuart Winton</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Sep 2009 19:00:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://doctorvee.co.uk/?p=3359#comment-1417479</guid>
		<description>OK, Richard; my point in essence is that if you don&#039;t think the integrity issue is sufficient to make immediate FPTP counts compulsory then it&#039;s not much of a counter-argument against holding FPTP counts at a more convenient time.

I think you&#039;re more worried about the &quot;enjoyment of the caffeine-fuelled election nights&quot; than electoral fraud ;0)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>OK, Richard; my point in essence is that if you don&#8217;t think the integrity issue is sufficient to make immediate FPTP counts compulsory then it&#8217;s not much of a counter-argument against holding FPTP counts at a more convenient time.</p>
<p>I think you&#8217;re more worried about the &#8220;enjoyment of the caffeine-fuelled election nights&#8221; than electoral fraud ;0)</p>
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		<title>By: Richard Thomson</title>
		<link>http://doctorvee.co.uk/2009/09/08/general-election-night-the-distasteful-sport-of-politics/comment-page-1/#comment-1417253</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard Thomson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Sep 2009 15:01:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://doctorvee.co.uk/?p=3359#comment-1417253</guid>
		<description>Stuart - I was explaining the historical and practical reason why we have &#039;election nights&#039; at the moment. You needn&#039;t waste your time trying to read any more into it than that.

In any case, if you read my final paragraph carefully, you should be able to deduce that I have no objection in principal to counts taking place the following day, or even days later as with the European counts.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Stuart &#8211; I was explaining the historical and practical reason why we have &#8216;election nights&#8217; at the moment. You needn&#8217;t waste your time trying to read any more into it than that.</p>
<p>In any case, if you read my final paragraph carefully, you should be able to deduce that I have no objection in principal to counts taking place the following day, or even days later as with the European counts.</p>
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		<title>By: Stuart Winton</title>
		<link>http://doctorvee.co.uk/2009/09/08/general-election-night-the-distasteful-sport-of-politics/comment-page-1/#comment-1417084</link>
		<dc:creator>Stuart Winton</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Sep 2009 11:42:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://doctorvee.co.uk/?p=3359#comment-1417084</guid>
		<description>Richard, well presumably if you think the timing of the count should be at the discretion of officials then this detracts from the point you make about &quot;maintaining the integrity of the ballot&quot;?

What I&#039;m getting at is that if you don&#039;t think immediate counts should be made compulsory then your point about electoral integrity looks more like  something used merely to justify the entertainment value of a late-night count rather than anything of real substance vis-a-vis the possibility of fraud.

If there is a real possibility of fraud due to a delayed count then surely the timing shouldn&#039;t be left to the personal convenience of officials?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Richard, well presumably if you think the timing of the count should be at the discretion of officials then this detracts from the point you make about &#8220;maintaining the integrity of the ballot&#8221;?</p>
<p>What I&#8217;m getting at is that if you don&#8217;t think immediate counts should be made compulsory then your point about electoral integrity looks more like  something used merely to justify the entertainment value of a late-night count rather than anything of real substance vis-a-vis the possibility of fraud.</p>
<p>If there is a real possibility of fraud due to a delayed count then surely the timing shouldn&#8217;t be left to the personal convenience of officials?</p>
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		<title>By: Richard Thomson</title>
		<link>http://doctorvee.co.uk/2009/09/08/general-election-night-the-distasteful-sport-of-politics/comment-page-1/#comment-1416130</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard Thomson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Sep 2009 21:56:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://doctorvee.co.uk/?p=3359#comment-1416130</guid>
		<description>Not at all, Stuart. From whence do you get that idea?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Not at all, Stuart. From whence do you get that idea?</p>
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		<title>By: Stuart Winton</title>
		<link>http://doctorvee.co.uk/2009/09/08/general-election-night-the-distasteful-sport-of-politics/comment-page-1/#comment-1415667</link>
		<dc:creator>Stuart Winton</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Sep 2009 15:41:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://doctorvee.co.uk/?p=3359#comment-1415667</guid>
		<description>So, Richard, you&#039;re presumably arguing for immediate counts to be made compulsory to safeguard the integrity of the process?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So, Richard, you&#8217;re presumably arguing for immediate counts to be made compulsory to safeguard the integrity of the process?</p>
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		<title>By: Duncan Stephen</title>
		<link>http://doctorvee.co.uk/2009/09/08/general-election-night-the-distasteful-sport-of-politics/comment-page-1/#comment-1415495</link>
		<dc:creator>Duncan Stephen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Sep 2009 14:09:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://doctorvee.co.uk/?p=3359#comment-1415495</guid>
		<description>Thanks for the comment Richard.

I agree that there are clear advantages to counting the ballots as soon as possible. It just interests me that the campaign to &quot;save election night&quot; is normally accompanied by a cheery picture of Robin Day and the BBC&#039;s comedy graphics. A lot of the debate has been about the great drama of the night, television ratings and so on. That&#039;s not the big issue, which was the point I was getting at.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for the comment Richard.</p>
<p>I agree that there are clear advantages to counting the ballots as soon as possible. It just interests me that the campaign to &#8220;save election night&#8221; is normally accompanied by a cheery picture of Robin Day and the BBC&#8217;s comedy graphics. A lot of the debate has been about the great drama of the night, television ratings and so on. That&#8217;s not the big issue, which was the point I was getting at.</p>
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		<title>By: Richard Thomson</title>
		<link>http://doctorvee.co.uk/2009/09/08/general-election-night-the-distasteful-sport-of-politics/comment-page-1/#comment-1415282</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard Thomson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Sep 2009 11:44:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://doctorvee.co.uk/?p=3359#comment-1415282</guid>
		<description>Duncan - the idea of holding the count immediately afterwards is to try and maintain the integrity of the ballot, not for any televisual jamboree or for the gratification of politicos. 

Parties are allowed to have polling agents, who can if they so wish be present at the opening of the polling station at 7am. They can then count the voters as they go in throughout the day, and check this against the number of ballot papers issued as the day progresses. At close of poll, they can get the final tally of ballots issued and observe the sealing of the ballot boxes. 

At the initial verification stage of the count, the number of ballots counted (valid or otherwise) for each box should equal the number of papers issued in respect of that box. Any discrepancy can then immediately be drawn to the attention of the returning officer and if necessary, the police. 

Electoral fraud in the UK is a minority sport, largely thanks to having simple, open procedures like this. While it&#039;s extremely unlikely that anyone would tamper with ballot boxes overnight, taking the boxes from polling place to the count and having the ballots verified as quickly as possible further reduces the (admittedly small) risk of foul play.

I admit to enjoying caffeine-fuelled election nights as much as anyone else. However, no matter what the attractions of getting home for a shower and a good sleep instead might be, the fact is that current practice didn&#039;t evolve either for the gratification of or through a sense of masochistic insomnia amongst the political classes. 

Of course, an STV election count on the scale of a general election would be impractical to begin at 10pm, unless electronic counting were to be used. However, for so long as we have the current system, the argument for leaving things as they are remains, to my mind at least, a strong one.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Duncan &#8211; the idea of holding the count immediately afterwards is to try and maintain the integrity of the ballot, not for any televisual jamboree or for the gratification of politicos. </p>
<p>Parties are allowed to have polling agents, who can if they so wish be present at the opening of the polling station at 7am. They can then count the voters as they go in throughout the day, and check this against the number of ballot papers issued as the day progresses. At close of poll, they can get the final tally of ballots issued and observe the sealing of the ballot boxes. </p>
<p>At the initial verification stage of the count, the number of ballots counted (valid or otherwise) for each box should equal the number of papers issued in respect of that box. Any discrepancy can then immediately be drawn to the attention of the returning officer and if necessary, the police. </p>
<p>Electoral fraud in the UK is a minority sport, largely thanks to having simple, open procedures like this. While it&#8217;s extremely unlikely that anyone would tamper with ballot boxes overnight, taking the boxes from polling place to the count and having the ballots verified as quickly as possible further reduces the (admittedly small) risk of foul play.</p>
<p>I admit to enjoying caffeine-fuelled election nights as much as anyone else. However, no matter what the attractions of getting home for a shower and a good sleep instead might be, the fact is that current practice didn&#8217;t evolve either for the gratification of or through a sense of masochistic insomnia amongst the political classes. </p>
<p>Of course, an STV election count on the scale of a general election would be impractical to begin at 10pm, unless electronic counting were to be used. However, for so long as we have the current system, the argument for leaving things as they are remains, to my mind at least, a strong one.</p>
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		<title>By: Duncan Stephen</title>
		<link>http://doctorvee.co.uk/2009/09/08/general-election-night-the-distasteful-sport-of-politics/comment-page-1/#comment-1413669</link>
		<dc:creator>Duncan Stephen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Sep 2009 20:50:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://doctorvee.co.uk/?p=3359#comment-1413669</guid>
		<description>Thanks for the comment Stuart.

I secretly suspect that the excuse to stay up late may have been one of the reasons I became interested in politics. I think it was the same for F1 too!

But while it might be fun, it&#039;s the integrity of the result that really matters.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for the comment Stuart.</p>
<p>I secretly suspect that the excuse to stay up late may have been one of the reasons I became interested in politics. I think it was the same for F1 too!</p>
<p>But while it might be fun, it&#8217;s the integrity of the result that really matters.</p>
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		<title>By: Stuart Winton</title>
		<link>http://doctorvee.co.uk/2009/09/08/general-election-night-the-distasteful-sport-of-politics/comment-page-1/#comment-1413061</link>
		<dc:creator>Stuart Winton</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Sep 2009 15:26:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://doctorvee.co.uk/?p=3359#comment-1413061</guid>
		<description>I sympathise with both sides of the argument, but certainly a compelling response.

The debate brings to mind how many - particularly younger - people seem to treat late-night drinking as an end in itself; the later the better. In my younger days I would have subscribed so such an argument, but this thinking has lost its appeal as I&#039;ve gotten older.

By the same token, there&#039;s something exciting about staying up all night to get the election results, but there really isn&#039;t much in the way of rationality involved.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I sympathise with both sides of the argument, but certainly a compelling response.</p>
<p>The debate brings to mind how many &#8211; particularly younger &#8211; people seem to treat late-night drinking as an end in itself; the later the better. In my younger days I would have subscribed so such an argument, but this thinking has lost its appeal as I&#8217;ve gotten older.</p>
<p>By the same token, there&#8217;s something exciting about staying up all night to get the election results, but there really isn&#8217;t much in the way of rationality involved.</p>
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