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	<title>Comments on: The other SNP pickle: universities</title>
	<atom:link href="http://doctorvee.co.uk/2007/11/16/the-other-snp-pickle-universities/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://doctorvee.co.uk/2007/11/16/the-other-snp-pickle-universities/</link>
	<description>Not a real vee</description>
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		<title>By: Charles Hand</title>
		<link>http://doctorvee.co.uk/2007/11/16/the-other-snp-pickle-universities/comment-page-1/#comment-713521</link>
		<dc:creator>Charles Hand</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Sep 2008 15:49:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://doctorvee.co.uk/2007/11/16/the-other-snp-pickle-universities/#comment-713521</guid>
		<description>You ignore the fact that people often go to university with the partial intention of using it as an opportunity to network and to make interesting friends. They take advantage of the extra-curricular activities on offer to them to develop themselves and their interests as well as their relationships.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You ignore the fact that people often go to university with the partial intention of using it as an opportunity to network and to make interesting friends. They take advantage of the extra-curricular activities on offer to them to develop themselves and their interests as well as their relationships.</p>
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		<title>By: BoJo might be a bozo, but Labour is the real danger &#187; doctorvee</title>
		<link>http://doctorvee.co.uk/2007/11/16/the-other-snp-pickle-universities/comment-page-1/#comment-488724</link>
		<dc:creator>BoJo might be a bozo, but Labour is the real danger &#187; doctorvee</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 05 May 2008 00:18:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://doctorvee.co.uk/2007/11/16/the-other-snp-pickle-universities/#comment-488724</guid>
		<description>[...] The students, being self-interested, rational utility maximisers, decided to vote against the possibility of being seen to favour tuition fees. I voted on principle against this subsidy for the middle class. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] The students, being self-interested, rational utility maximisers, decided to vote against the possibility of being seen to favour tuition fees. I voted on principle against this subsidy for the middle class. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: doctorvee &#187; Reasons to favour road tolls</title>
		<link>http://doctorvee.co.uk/2007/11/16/the-other-snp-pickle-universities/comment-page-1/#comment-380906</link>
		<dc:creator>doctorvee &#187; Reasons to favour road tolls</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 02 Mar 2008 09:34:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://doctorvee.co.uk/2007/11/16/the-other-snp-pickle-universities/#comment-380906</guid>
		<description>[...] of these policies are completely counter productive to a Fife-based student. I have already covered free university education before, so I won&#8217;t bore you again. But I have been meaning to write about road tolls for a [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] of these policies are completely counter productive to a Fife-based student. I have already covered free university education before, so I won&#8217;t bore you again. But I have been meaning to write about road tolls for a [...]</p>
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		<title>By: jack stephen</title>
		<link>http://doctorvee.co.uk/2007/11/16/the-other-snp-pickle-universities/comment-page-1/#comment-216725</link>
		<dc:creator>jack stephen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 Nov 2007 17:41:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://doctorvee.co.uk/2007/11/16/the-other-snp-pickle-universities/#comment-216725</guid>
		<description>I was being deliberately opaque.
My point is really that if people benefit from a university education then some of the &quot;investment&quot; can be taken back via direct taxation once they hit the higher tax bracket (many will not.) That surely wouldn&#039;t disadvantage poor people who may not otherwise reach that bracket but who may possibly gain overall.
Also any non-graduates in the higher tax bracket (s?) ought to be able to afford that tax &quot;loss&quot; to their income. After all basic rate tax payers have to get by on lower pay, don&#039;t they?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I was being deliberately opaque.<br />
My point is really that if people benefit from a university education then some of the &#8220;investment&#8221; can be taken back via direct taxation once they hit the higher tax bracket (many will not.) That surely wouldn&#8217;t disadvantage poor people who may not otherwise reach that bracket but who may possibly gain overall.<br />
Also any non-graduates in the higher tax bracket (s?) ought to be able to afford that tax &#8220;loss&#8221; to their income. After all basic rate tax payers have to get by on lower pay, don&#8217;t they?</p>
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		<title>By: doctorvee &#187; The meaningless difference between left and right</title>
		<link>http://doctorvee.co.uk/2007/11/16/the-other-snp-pickle-universities/comment-page-1/#comment-216637</link>
		<dc:creator>doctorvee &#187; The meaningless difference between left and right</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 Nov 2007 16:14:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://doctorvee.co.uk/2007/11/16/the-other-snp-pickle-universities/#comment-216637</guid>
		<description>[...] a bit like degrees, as we have been discussing a few posts back. There are so many blogging awards that most of them mean zilch. So it&#8217;s quite funny to see [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] a bit like degrees, as we have been discussing a few posts back. There are so many blogging awards that most of them mean zilch. So it&#8217;s quite funny to see [...]</p>
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		<title>By: doctorvee</title>
		<link>http://doctorvee.co.uk/2007/11/16/the-other-snp-pickle-universities/comment-page-1/#comment-215307</link>
		<dc:creator>doctorvee</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 Nov 2007 00:58:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://doctorvee.co.uk/2007/11/16/the-other-snp-pickle-universities/#comment-215307</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;With an increase in number of students - 52%!! - the prospect of a highly-paid job surely recedes. The (British) Government is either playing a con trick here or hasn’t thought it through. The more graduates there are, the less premium a degree will attract by way of subsequent salary. Poor people will have even less of an incentive to get a degree.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Yes, that was the point I was making. Under my suggested system, these wrongs are undone. If people are made to personally pay for the education they receive, wasters don&#039;t bother, degrees become valuable and the prospect of getting a highly-paid job increases again.

&lt;blockquote&gt;Isn’t education an investment by society in the talents of its young people?&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Under the current system, it doesn&#039;t work like that. As I have pointed out, it is a subsidy that lets rich people enjoy themselves for a few years. Society doesn&#039;t need to invest in the talents of its young people. If it will work for society, it will only be if it will work for the individuals in that society. As such, the individual investments would maximise the benefits that accrue to society. Under the current system, society sometimes &#039;invests&#039; in people who will be worse off if they go through university than if they don&#039;t. Therefore society is overall worse off. (This is unless you think there is an innate benefit to society from funding university education &lt;i&gt;per se&lt;/i&gt;, but this seems like quite a costly way of getting a warm glow, particularly since it appears to hurt the poor the most.)

&lt;blockquote&gt;If they benefit greatly from this monetarily in later life it ought to be given back (taken back by the state through the tax system?)&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Seems like quite a bureaucratic, roundabout way of going about it, particularly since there is only a tenuous link between income and university attendance (in the sense that there are lots of other factors that can affect your income).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>With an increase in number of students &#8211; 52%!! &#8211; the prospect of a highly-paid job surely recedes. The (British) Government is either playing a con trick here or hasn’t thought it through. The more graduates there are, the less premium a degree will attract by way of subsequent salary. Poor people will have even less of an incentive to get a degree.</p></blockquote>
<p>Yes, that was the point I was making. Under my suggested system, these wrongs are undone. If people are made to personally pay for the education they receive, wasters don&#8217;t bother, degrees become valuable and the prospect of getting a highly-paid job increases again.</p>
<blockquote><p>Isn’t education an investment by society in the talents of its young people?</p></blockquote>
<p>Under the current system, it doesn&#8217;t work like that. As I have pointed out, it is a subsidy that lets rich people enjoy themselves for a few years. Society doesn&#8217;t need to invest in the talents of its young people. If it will work for society, it will only be if it will work for the individuals in that society. As such, the individual investments would maximise the benefits that accrue to society. Under the current system, society sometimes &#8216;invests&#8217; in people who will be worse off if they go through university than if they don&#8217;t. Therefore society is overall worse off. (This is unless you think there is an innate benefit to society from funding university education <i>per se</i>, but this seems like quite a costly way of getting a warm glow, particularly since it appears to hurt the poor the most.)</p>
<blockquote><p>If they benefit greatly from this monetarily in later life it ought to be given back (taken back by the state through the tax system?)</p></blockquote>
<p>Seems like quite a bureaucratic, roundabout way of going about it, particularly since there is only a tenuous link between income and university attendance (in the sense that there are lots of other factors that can affect your income).</p>
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		<title>By: jack stephen</title>
		<link>http://doctorvee.co.uk/2007/11/16/the-other-snp-pickle-universities/comment-page-1/#comment-215159</link>
		<dc:creator>jack stephen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 18 Nov 2007 23:33:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://doctorvee.co.uk/2007/11/16/the-other-snp-pickle-universities/#comment-215159</guid>
		<description>&quot;although surely the prospect of a highly-paid job ought to be enough incentive&quot;
With an increase in number of students - 52%!! - the prospect of a highly-paid job surely recedes. The (British) Government is either playing a con trick here or hasn&#039;t thought it through. The more graduates there are, the less premium a degree will attract by way of subsequent salary. Poor people will have even less of an incentive to get a degree.

Isn&#039;t education an investment by society in the talents of its young people? If they benefit greatly from this monetarily in later life it ought to be given back (taken back by the state through the tax system?) - as should any large monetary benefit that people accrue through making it good in the environment the state has enabled.

(There is also an argument that the state&#039;s investment should be recouped from those who benefited by them remaining in the country for a length of time to contribute to the system via taxation.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;although surely the prospect of a highly-paid job ought to be enough incentive&#8221;<br />
With an increase in number of students &#8211; 52%!! &#8211; the prospect of a highly-paid job surely recedes. The (British) Government is either playing a con trick here or hasn&#8217;t thought it through. The more graduates there are, the less premium a degree will attract by way of subsequent salary. Poor people will have even less of an incentive to get a degree.</p>
<p>Isn&#8217;t education an investment by society in the talents of its young people? If they benefit greatly from this monetarily in later life it ought to be given back (taken back by the state through the tax system?) &#8211; as should any large monetary benefit that people accrue through making it good in the environment the state has enabled.</p>
<p>(There is also an argument that the state&#8217;s investment should be recouped from those who benefited by them remaining in the country for a length of time to contribute to the system via taxation.)</p>
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		<title>By: doctorvee</title>
		<link>http://doctorvee.co.uk/2007/11/16/the-other-snp-pickle-universities/comment-page-1/#comment-215060</link>
		<dc:creator>doctorvee</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 18 Nov 2007 22:44:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://doctorvee.co.uk/2007/11/16/the-other-snp-pickle-universities/#comment-215060</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m really not convinced that my suggested system would dissuade people from studying unless they were rich. In my suggested system nobody has to pay a penny until they have left university. They pay for tuition fees after they have left university, in line with their ability to pay (as is the case with student loans currently).

When taking the decision whether or not to study, what matters is the difference between what you expect to earn in your lifetime if you go to university and what you expect to earn in your lifetime if you don&#039;t. But we know that this difference is larger for people who come from poor backgrounds than it is for rich people. So poor people have more to gain from attending university.

Under the current system, a rich person can attend university even if the difference between the two incomes is lower than it would be for the average poor person, lower than the cost of tuition fees or even slightly negative (this negative value would be in effect the price the person is willing to pay to have a laugh for a few years). Poor people cannot afford to behave like this. As such, in effect, universal free university education acts as a cushion for the rich, not as a helping hand for the poor. If those rich people who had a very low or slightly negative difference knew they had to pay for their tuition, they would probably give it a miss, thereby freeing up a position for somebody who would genuinely benefit from university education.

I know that there is uncertainty in such decisions that may deter a poor person from attending university when there are tuition fees. But I think having people pay in line with their ability to pay would give people enough breathing space if things did not go to plan.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m really not convinced that my suggested system would dissuade people from studying unless they were rich. In my suggested system nobody has to pay a penny until they have left university. They pay for tuition fees after they have left university, in line with their ability to pay (as is the case with student loans currently).</p>
<p>When taking the decision whether or not to study, what matters is the difference between what you expect to earn in your lifetime if you go to university and what you expect to earn in your lifetime if you don&#8217;t. But we know that this difference is larger for people who come from poor backgrounds than it is for rich people. So poor people have more to gain from attending university.</p>
<p>Under the current system, a rich person can attend university even if the difference between the two incomes is lower than it would be for the average poor person, lower than the cost of tuition fees or even slightly negative (this negative value would be in effect the price the person is willing to pay to have a laugh for a few years). Poor people cannot afford to behave like this. As such, in effect, universal free university education acts as a cushion for the rich, not as a helping hand for the poor. If those rich people who had a very low or slightly negative difference knew they had to pay for their tuition, they would probably give it a miss, thereby freeing up a position for somebody who would genuinely benefit from university education.</p>
<p>I know that there is uncertainty in such decisions that may deter a poor person from attending university when there are tuition fees. But I think having people pay in line with their ability to pay would give people enough breathing space if things did not go to plan.</p>
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		<title>By: Scottish Roundup &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Everything&#8217;s Debatable&#8230;</title>
		<link>http://doctorvee.co.uk/2007/11/16/the-other-snp-pickle-universities/comment-page-1/#comment-214878</link>
		<dc:creator>Scottish Roundup &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Everything&#8217;s Debatable&#8230;</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 18 Nov 2007 21:13:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://doctorvee.co.uk/2007/11/16/the-other-snp-pickle-universities/#comment-214878</guid>
		<description>[...] Doctor Vee has a very well considered and argued piece on University Funding following the SNP’s budget whilst .   [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Doctor Vee has a very well considered and argued piece on University Funding following the SNP’s budget whilst .   [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Calum Leslie</title>
		<link>http://doctorvee.co.uk/2007/11/16/the-other-snp-pickle-universities/comment-page-1/#comment-214452</link>
		<dc:creator>Calum Leslie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 18 Nov 2007 17:05:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://doctorvee.co.uk/2007/11/16/the-other-snp-pickle-universities/#comment-214452</guid>
		<description>It should be noted that I do think that this needs to be balanced out. You can&#039;t just fund universities unlimited amounts of money, and you can&#039;t give all students a free ride. But keeping debt at a level that people can reasonably be expected to pay back while allowing anyone with the will to carry through access is just something that needs to happen.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It should be noted that I do think that this needs to be balanced out. You can&#8217;t just fund universities unlimited amounts of money, and you can&#8217;t give all students a free ride. But keeping debt at a level that people can reasonably be expected to pay back while allowing anyone with the will to carry through access is just something that needs to happen.</p>
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