Comments on: This has nothing to do with freedom of speech http://doctorvee.co.uk/2006/08/17/this-has-nothing-to-do-with-freedom-of-speech/ Not a real vee Sat, 30 Aug 2008 03:40:56 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.6 By: Longrider http://doctorvee.co.uk/2006/08/17/this-has-nothing-to-do-with-freedom-of-speech/#comment-16364 Longrider Sun, 20 Aug 2006 14:21:39 +0000 http://doctorvee.co.uk/2006/08/17/this-has-nothing-to-do-with-freedom-of-speech/#comment-16364 Dave, I understand exactly what "Islamophobia" means ;) http://www.longrider.co.uk/blog/2006/08/20/islamphobia-the-new-racism/ Dave, I understand exactly what “Islamophobia” means ;)

http://www.longrider.co.uk/blog/2006/08/20/islamphobia-the-new-racism/

]]> By: Backword Dave http://doctorvee.co.uk/2006/08/17/this-has-nothing-to-do-with-freedom-of-speech/#comment-16357 Backword Dave Sun, 20 Aug 2006 09:55:27 +0000 http://doctorvee.co.uk/2006/08/17/this-has-nothing-to-do-with-freedom-of-speech/#comment-16357 Oh hell, you're all wrong here. 'Islamophobia' is not a 'fear of Islam', it's a bullshit neologism. It's just used to mean 'nasty people' but idiots who never heard of Godwin's Law. Wilson does not explictly equate Islam with blowing things up; rather the opposite, he says people who object to blowing things up may be called Islamophobic. (Which is probably a hysterical reaction, but he works in community relations, a field stuffed with buzzword zombies, so who knows what crap they come out with.) Second, I fail to see how he brought Orange into disrepute. He didn't name them. He said he worked for a telecoms company and gave his name. If you thought John Band was treated poorly by stalkers who complained to his (also unnamed) employers, you've got to come out for Wilson. Many people didn't find John Band funny either. I did, and I always liked his style. It's almost too tempting to do the Harry's Place thing here -- JB slagged off the Jews, and Inigo Wilson said nasty things about Muslims. Oh hell, you’re all wrong here. ‘Islamophobia’ is not a ‘fear of Islam’, it’s a bullshit neologism. It’s just used to mean ‘nasty people’ but idiots who never heard of Godwin’s Law. Wilson does not explictly equate Islam with blowing things up; rather the opposite, he says people who object to blowing things up may be called Islamophobic. (Which is probably a hysterical reaction, but he works in community relations, a field stuffed with buzzword zombies, so who knows what crap they come out with.)

Second, I fail to see how he brought Orange into disrepute. He didn’t name them. He said he worked for a telecoms company and gave his name. If you thought John Band was treated poorly by stalkers who complained to his (also unnamed) employers, you’ve got to come out for Wilson. Many people didn’t find John Band funny either. I did, and I always liked his style. It’s almost too tempting to do the Harry’s Place thing here — JB slagged off the Jews, and Inigo Wilson said nasty things about Muslims.

]]> By: Longrider » Storms, Teacups, Pots and Kettles http://doctorvee.co.uk/2006/08/17/this-has-nothing-to-do-with-freedom-of-speech/#comment-16292 Longrider » Storms, Teacups, Pots and Kettles Fri, 18 Aug 2006 16:28:10 +0000 http://doctorvee.co.uk/2006/08/17/this-has-nothing-to-do-with-freedom-of-speech/#comment-16292 [...] There’s been a positive storm brewing recently in the land of blog regarding Inigo Wilson’s “Lefty Lexicon” over at  Conservative Home and plenty have commented. Much has touched on freedom of speech and others have pointed out – rightly – that such freedom brings consequences. Still, I thought I’d bring my comment to the discussion. [...] [...] There’s been a positive storm brewing recently in the land of blog regarding Inigo Wilson’s “Lefty Lexicon” over at  Conservative Home and plenty have commented. Much has touched on freedom of speech and others have pointed out – rightly – that such freedom brings consequences. Still, I thought I’d bring my comment to the discussion. [...]

]]> By: Longrider http://doctorvee.co.uk/2006/08/17/this-has-nothing-to-do-with-freedom-of-speech/#comment-16282 Longrider Fri, 18 Aug 2006 14:27:46 +0000 http://doctorvee.co.uk/2006/08/17/this-has-nothing-to-do-with-freedom-of-speech/#comment-16282 <i>"Muslims as a group of people"</i> and <i>"followers of a religion"</i> are one and the same here. Muslims follow Islam. Islam is a religious belief system that covers a significant proportion of the globe and its followers come from a variety of racial groups. There may not be anything specifically about blowing up transport in the ideology, but killing Infidels is in the Q'ran... All depends on how radically you want to interpret it, isn't it? That's why there is so much of a thing about moderate Muslims not condemning attacks - if they don't, they are damned for not speaking out. If they do, they are not "real Muslims" and are going against the Q'ran. Damned if they do, damned if they don't. :| Wilson's comments were distasteful, yes. Racist, no. There is a clear difference between attacking people who follow a religion (however closely they follow its ideology) and those who are of a particular racial group. Conflating the two rather makes Wilson's point for him. Sorry to be pedantic, but I do like words to be used correctly ;) Call him an intolerant bigot, by all means, but there was nothing racist in his comments. “Muslims as a group of people” and “followers of a religion” are one and the same here. Muslims follow Islam. Islam is a religious belief system that covers a significant proportion of the globe and its followers come from a variety of racial groups.

There may not be anything specifically about blowing up transport in the ideology, but killing Infidels is in the Q’ran… All depends on how radically you want to interpret it, isn’t it? That’s why there is so much of a thing about moderate Muslims not condemning attacks - if they don’t, they are damned for not speaking out. If they do, they are not “real Muslims” and are going against the Q’ran. Damned if they do, damned if they don’t. :|

Wilson’s comments were distasteful, yes. Racist, no. There is a clear difference between attacking people who follow a religion (however closely they follow its ideology) and those who are of a particular racial group. Conflating the two rather makes Wilson’s point for him.

Sorry to be pedantic, but I do like words to be used correctly ;) Call him an intolerant bigot, by all means, but there was nothing racist in his comments.

]]> By: doctorvee http://doctorvee.co.uk/2006/08/17/this-has-nothing-to-do-with-freedom-of-speech/#comment-16277 doctorvee Fri, 18 Aug 2006 12:01:25 +0000 http://doctorvee.co.uk/2006/08/17/this-has-nothing-to-do-with-freedom-of-speech/#comment-16277 You make some good points about that Longrider, but I'm not sure you can say that this wasn't even close to borderline racism. Yes, Islam is a religion / ideology -- but Inigo Wilson made no reference to it. He described Islam as being about the blowing up of transport, and as far as I know there is nothing in the ideology of Islam about blowing up transport. As such, he was attacking Muslims as a group of people, not as followers of a religion. If he put that definition under the heading of 'al-Qaeda' or 'terrorism' it would be a different matter, but then Wilson would have missed out on his big chance to take a pot shot at a minority group. You make some good points about that Longrider, but I’m not sure you can say that this wasn’t even close to borderline racism. Yes, Islam is a religion / ideology — but Inigo Wilson made no reference to it.

He described Islam as being about the blowing up of transport, and as far as I know there is nothing in the ideology of Islam about blowing up transport. As such, he was attacking Muslims as a group of people, not as followers of a religion.

If he put that definition under the heading of ‘al-Qaeda’ or ‘terrorism’ it would be a different matter, but then Wilson would have missed out on his big chance to take a pot shot at a minority group.

]]> By: Longrider http://doctorvee.co.uk/2006/08/17/this-has-nothing-to-do-with-freedom-of-speech/#comment-16267 Longrider Fri, 18 Aug 2006 07:01:51 +0000 http://doctorvee.co.uk/2006/08/17/this-has-nothing-to-do-with-freedom-of-speech/#comment-16267 Well, Orange have rather done as Petite Anglais' employers have done - drawn unnecessary attention to themselves. So, it was unfunny, but touched a nerve or two, it seems. Let's get one thing clear here, none of the comments were racist. Making facetious or satirical comments about Islam is not racist; not even close, nor borderline racist. Islam is a religion, not a racial group. Criticising it is criticising an ideology, not a racial group. Poking fun at it even in a crass manner is still not racist. Saying as he did (clearly tongue in cheek) that Muslims blow people up is still not racist as Muslims do not come from a single racial group. It was tasteless, not racist. Indeed, calling him a racist will simply confirm one of the comments he made - his definition of "racist". His comment on consultation is, as with some of the others, rather close to the truth... :| and certainly a massive own goal. The problem here, is that if it was intended as satire, it missed a crucial element in that it just isn't funny. Good satire should have the reader chuckling at the underlying truisms. Okay, that said, should Orange have sacked him? I think Chris is right in that they probably have a case for disrepute in that he openly identified himself and in doing so; his employer who clearly does not wish to be associated with his comments. Given that they are, I believe, within their rights to do so, should they? Probably not. It does tend to cast them in a bad light as they will appear to be over reacting to something that if ignored would have quietly gone away - and, frankly, that would have been the best thing to do. Look what has happened; a rather silly attempt at satire is the centre of a row and now being discussed all over the place. Well, Orange have rather done as Petite Anglais’ employers have done - drawn unnecessary attention to themselves.

So, it was unfunny, but touched a nerve or two, it seems. Let’s get one thing clear here, none of the comments were racist. Making facetious or satirical comments about Islam is not racist; not even close, nor borderline racist. Islam is a religion, not a racial group. Criticising it is criticising an ideology, not a racial group. Poking fun at it even in a crass manner is still not racist. Saying as he did (clearly tongue in cheek) that Muslims blow people up is still not racist as Muslims do not come from a single racial group. It was tasteless, not racist. Indeed, calling him a racist will simply confirm one of the comments he made - his definition of “racist”.

His comment on consultation is, as with some of the others, rather close to the truth… :| and certainly a massive own goal.

The problem here, is that if it was intended as satire, it missed a crucial element in that it just isn’t funny. Good satire should have the reader chuckling at the underlying truisms.

Okay, that said, should Orange have sacked him? I think Chris is right in that they probably have a case for disrepute in that he openly identified himself and in doing so; his employer who clearly does not wish to be associated with his comments. Given that they are, I believe, within their rights to do so, should they? Probably not. It does tend to cast them in a bad light as they will appear to be over reacting to something that if ignored would have quietly gone away - and, frankly, that would have been the best thing to do. Look what has happened; a rather silly attempt at satire is the centre of a row and now being discussed all over the place.

]]> By: Osama Saeed http://doctorvee.co.uk/2006/08/17/this-has-nothing-to-do-with-freedom-of-speech/#comment-16218 Osama Saeed Thu, 17 Aug 2006 17:42:13 +0000 http://doctorvee.co.uk/2006/08/17/this-has-nothing-to-do-with-freedom-of-speech/#comment-16218 Islamophobia is fear of Islam. Wilson said it was fear of being blown up on public transport on the way to work. Ergo, Islam is blowing people up on public transport on the way to work. Consequently, I can't see that his position is at all tenable. Islamophobia is fear of Islam. Wilson said it was fear of being blown up on public transport on the way to work. Ergo, Islam is blowing people up on public transport on the way to work.

Consequently, I can’t see that his position is at all tenable.

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